Why 'Moderate' Muslim Ed Husain Cannot Discuss Muslim Jew-Hatred Honestly

The Angel's behaviour in Islam seems a lot more forceful than in either Judaism or Christianity - my thought is that we are looking at a counterfeit, probably fallen angel. The encounter with Daniel makes it clear that such beings exist, i.e., the Prince of Persia who delayed the answer to Daniel's prayers. There is no question of Mohammed's consent being sought, as Mary's was, or of reasonable questions being answered.

Precisely!

Well explained. Thank you for adding to the conversation. So much to know and understand!

Thank you - I hope never to stop learning.

Excellent points. I doubt the Jews were willing to accept other locations either, though, primarily because of Jerusalem, and their deep religious ties to that land.

YOU arguments are cogent and well developed. We have the documents in which this a was discussed. Herzl was ready to accept Uganda, but the Jews involved in the movement asked: "What historical ties do we have there?"

"If I forget you, Jerusalem cut my right hand." We have never forgotten that Jewish history is embedded in the Land of Israel. Simply said, the Mufti of Jerusalem said NO to partition. This man's hatred for Jews was no different from Haniyeh or Sinwar. DO you know what was the incident like October 7th called the Farhood in Iraq? This hatred is in the Protocol of Hamas, which has also no so different from what Arafat posited. When the Arabs loved their children more than they hate the Jews, then we will be able to have peace

Islam's claim to be an Abrahamic faith (rather than merely an Abrahamic heresy), and hence to parity with Judaism and Christianity, rests on its assertion that Allah is identical with YHWH, and that there is no possibility that Allah could be any other entity. Only if Allah really is the God of Abraham, does it make sense to understand Islam in relation to Judaism and Christianity, and even then, its views that the Jewish and Christian scriptures are valid only in so far as they agree with the Qur'an, and that Mohammed's understanding of Christian doctrine (including his view that Mary, rather than the Holy Spirit, is held by Christians to be the third person of the Trinity) is infallible, is problematic.
The hadiths state that the being who dictated the material of which the Qur'an is comprised crushed Mohammed's chest. This is typical of trance mediumship, which, before Spiritualism became respectable, was also known as witchcraft, and therefore implies a source other than YHWH for Mohammed's revelations.

Islam has NO connection with Abraham or his faith. It connects to the religion AWAY from which Yhwh God called him, subsequently making the promises to his descendents because of his faith and obedience. Judaism is the truly Abraham faith, to which Christianity only has slim claim through Yeshua, our Redeemer. Islam, "birthed" in Arabia, now Saudi Arabia, has no direct connection and barely any slim connections at all to Abraham. They are descended from his sons that are not the covenant son, and held no share in the covenant or its promises. As in history, today we have no connection to Islam, the ideology of which flies in the faces of the ideologies of Judaism and Christianity. Attempting to lump them together is simply wrong.

Not in agreement with you. True, the Jewish basis of the three religion is more than obvious. However both Christianity and Islam tried to obliterate Judaism. Yes, the Crusades, the Inquisition and unwanted conversions to Christianity. For its part, Islam also tried since Jews did not convert to Mohammed's religion to obliterate it. See how Jews were treated in those Muslim countries and how they reacted in 1948. NO, we can't help to moderate it, t hey must do that themselves since it is an internal issue of fiery Imams that every Friday possible scream the Jew is :Satan."

You prove my point if the case can be made that Islam might have no tìes to Abraham if the early accounts in Beresheet are fiction and Ishmael is an imagìned being like a Ghost or a Jinn and ibn abd Al Lat might be ibn abd Allah

Allah may be closer to Al Lat , certainly calling either sounds the same , Since the prophet was a Qureshi who as keepers of Macca favored Al Lat, Manat, and Uzza. They eventually reconciled with the prophet when he acknowledged the trio

The Quran is comprised of verses of divination dictated by the prophet to Zaid ibn Thabit , who with a group of scribes consolidated the material into the Quran. The Sirah was composed by ibn Ishaq a Nestorian Christian commissioned by Al Mansour and the Hadith by Bukhari both decades after the death of the prophet

The problem is with cherry picking the Jewish Scriptures so that only the bits that fit Mohammed's agenda are deemed valid. Ishmael certainly lived - but Abraham was clearly told that the chosen people would be descended from Isaac (Genesis 17:19). Islam does something similar in the New Testament by claiming that Jesus' promise that He would ask the Father to send another Comforter to the same disciples to whom He was speaking (John 14:16), which was fulfilled in Acts 2, really predicted Mohammed's own arrival on the scene 650 years later. Again, Jesus' words are held to be valid when they can be used to buttress Mohammed's claims, but not when they cannot (for example, His predictions of His own death, which Islam claims never happened).

Hi Satrap: Yes, not a deep connection but you must remember that Mohammed bemoaned the fact that "G-d had not gifted the Arabs a book like Jews and Christians had." Hence, the claiming of Angel Gabriel in the cave and reciting because there was no way to do it in writing -given that there was no education to speak off. Mohammed learned about other religions when he was a merchant. He decided that he had to wipe out idolatry in Mecca which was a center of worship. Indeed, the Kaaba was then part of that worship and pilgrimage.- which was then integrated in what became Islam because he could not erase that worship. Not only while a merchant Mohammed learned of the Jewish religion, he also lived in Yathrib where Jews dwelled there not far from Mecca. Yathrib is now Medina and it has an important mosque. Yet, Jews rejected Mohammed's new religion of surrender, and He destroyed that Jewish community; hence now Medina. Therefore, the links to Judaism are, indeed, tangential but important: Oh you pray three times we will pray five, you have the Sabbath we will have Friday as a sacred day, and so on. Not that Islam connects this ties because they have designated Judaism as a religion of "Satan." Yet, when Mohammed constructed the rites for his new religion, he was quite aware of what Judaism had to offer and borrowed it. Yes, Islam came later and nothing to do with The roots of Judaism.

What I meant was that the Qur'an cites bits of the Jewish Scriptures, but by comparison with the Old Testament it is a bit like someone saying that they have the real Hans Christian Andersen, when what they have is one story in which a slighted fairy godmother ill-wishes a little mermaid who pricks her finger on a spindle after taking off her red cloak and hood at her grandmother's, and is then kidnapped by seven dwarves and taken to Bluebeard's castle, where Jack awaits her with his beanstalk.(Hasten to add that this does not mean that I'm comparing the OT to a fairy tale).

Qutham ibn Abd AlLat has a tragic miserable orphanhood losing father mother and uncle before he was 8. fasts and prays for hours in a dark cave. Quresh minders of Mecca's 360 idols; he rebels, eventually reconciles having found Allah. We have three religions
with shaky legs and a world on fire. Does the truth heal ?

Good evening Satrap: A hero, to be one must be able to overcome barriers and obstacles and be readily. Respecting each religion out front given that it is easy. Yet, the politics intervenes, and then we are confronted with the fact that very few people are heroes. Yes, the cave and the reciting (in the presence of his wife -only.) First comes Judaism, and it doesn't have "shaky legs" given what Begin proclaimed. it is the oldest of monotheisms and has stood the test of time. The rest is borrowing to make a "New Testament" and erase the "Old" ! " No, sorry, no erasure. Christianity started with fire but in time it became subdued after the Holocaust. Islam is still on fire, still on shaky legs. Please do not mix them up.

I have wondered if the Constantinian state church, and then Islam, represented a two stage plan by the Adversary to appropriate YHWH's rightful worship to himself. Constantinian syncretism (for example, the creation of the Christmas festival on the December 25th birthday of the Babylonian god Tammuz) may have been aimed, from the Adversary's perspective, at softening up the church and creating nominalism, with a view to an eventual takeover.

I believe that the Christian persecution of Jewish people was due to a distortion of Christianity, and that people like Peter and Paul would have been horrified. Otherwise it is difficult to account for the existence of Christians who are supportive of Israel.

Not Christianity, Roman Catholicism, alone, was responsible for all that.

No, Ishmael was Abraham's 1st born son, a real person, but disowned, after he persisted in bullying Isaac and Sarah persuaded Abraham he must not stay around to challenge Isaac's claim to the covenant promises. Again, there was no evidence he followed his father's faith after that, either, so while he is a blood descendant of Abraham, so are the sons of Keturah, but none were included in the covenant out of which Judaism, and then Christianity, were born.

Allegedly his mother was also a Catholic, and acquainted him with Catholic beliefs and rituals as well.

Good point! There is a lot of similarity to that concept, in how he took the bits and pieces, but then wove them into something different than what they actually told.

The NT does not, and was never intended to, "erase" the OT! It does "reveal" the answers to many of the "puzzles" of the OT, and is more akin to the codicil to an established will. Those who claim "erasure" have never read the whole as the single book it is. From Genesis 1:1, to Revelation 22:21, it is 1 single, complete message, nothing is "erased". The fire is still here. It may be " banked" for the dark night of Satan's time to rule on this world, but it has not been extinguished.

To be honest, I had not given that aspect any real thought, but doing so, now, I'd have to say very likely that is the case. Satan has certainly been around, and in opposition to the completion of Yhwh's plans, long enough. More, he has used every trick he can lay hands on in the process of opposing that completion, so it would certainly fit! Good catch, there!

Thank you - I have to admit I quite enjoyed writing that comment... but of course wish that the history to which it refers had not occurred.

Not "Christianity", Roman Catholicism, heavily influenced by the earlier Roman Empire and its hate for Israel. The Roman Catholic Church held sway over most of western Europe and had "missions" spreading all over the known world, including the "new world" after explorers discovered it and began opening it up, but it was NOT the whole, or even the essence, of Christianity! Eastern orthodoxy, and small sects, like the Waldensians, held different understandings of Christianity, from about the 3rd century. It was the Roman church which was responsible for those forced conversions, pogroms, and Crusades, and none had any sound basis in actual Christian teachings. We are not all the same, in that respect. Those who are Bible believing Christians hold very different views about Israel, from those of the Roman church!

1 more piece to that that Alla(-h) is the same as Yhwh , which swell educated former Muslim friend told me, and fits properly in Biblical history: the name of the moon deity of Ur, from whose worship Yhwh called Abraham was Alla! It pronounced slightly differently and is still in use in Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan and Syria. My friend was not sure when the h was added but it is THAT same person, a deity of war and violence! The nature of Allah as described in the Quran matches those given, in the Bible, of Lucifer (aka Satan). Given those pieces, I honestly can't see any rational way, or otherwise, the 3 can be speaking of, and to, the same deity,or otherwise related. I may be off track here, but I think the most likely cause for Muslims' hatred of Christians ties directly to Yeshua, and the general early belief Christianity was merely a strange sect of Judaism, because the earliest prominent preachers were of Jewish extract also. If that is the root there, then the reactions to kidnapping pilgrims to the holy land for ransom would only have reinforced their hate.

Of course. I think many of us wish that!

Thank you, Sandra, for you clarifications, though I disagree. Respectfully, I would argue that when you call the Jewish Scriptures "Old" because there was a new "covenant" with those who were now Christians. I would argue that the "Old" moniker is insulting :The Torah is as new as the everyday dew and separate from the New Testament. Yea! not erased but transformed to mean something else that Jews never thought possible, and think that it allowed another group to grow: "Jews For Jesus." Plus the notion of the Messiah's role is enormously different from his role in Judaism. Yes, erasing Judaism, and Jews themselves, In deed the doctrines exposed there, sadly, facilitated mass murders of Jews with the support of the Church - sadly for over 2,000 years !

Perhaps "elder" would have been a better choice of term to define the difference there? I agree, it is still as "new" and relevant as it was when it was penned initially. I 1st met Jews for Jesus some 50 yrs ago! They are wonderful people, "elder siblings" to us Gentile Christians, in a sense!
Again, this was not "the Church" a body of believers comprised of those who hold to Biblical beliefs, but mainly 1 institution that claims a membership at best questionable in that body. It was the Roman church that was the source of the hate and murders, with the Lutherans carrying over the Roman hate Luther brought in with himself, as a former Roman church priest, but because most lump us all under that label, they have given us all a bad reputation. Those who also believe the false teaching of "replacement theology", found NOWHERE in the Bible, have only added to that bad rep. Both are "dead" wrong! Without Israel and the covenant with Abraham for the children of Israel, there could be NO Christianity, because there would be no Christ! We would all still be wallowing in our sins with no hope, because there would be no one to redeem us from the penalty of them. Of ALL the NT scribes, only 1 was not a Jew, and he, a Greek physician, traveled with Jews, recording their travels and teaching, after initially recording Miriam is story. All the rest were Jews, so it is not the Biblical doctrine calling for harm to, or erasure of, the Jews!
May I ask how you believe Yeshua's role is so enormously different to Christians than to believing Jews? I never encountered that concept among the Jews for Jesus of my acquaintance. Neither have I found it in the Bible. I'm curious whether you found this somewhere as a "Christian" doctrine, or 1 denominational dogma? I HAVE encountered it in certain groups' internal teachings, but as part of their particular dogmas, never as general Christian doctrine. Where have you come across it, and come to believe it a general belief of all Christians?

One religion with shaky legs - Islam. Judaism and Christianity both have the same solid foundation - opinions vary as to which of the two superstructures is more valid.

Muslims claim that the Jewish use of El is the same as Allah - the problem with this is that El is a generic word for deity, rather than being His name.
I have come across references to an Allat, a moon goddess.
I think that part of what we are looking at is what C.S. Lewis described in The Last Battle, when he has one of his characters say that mixing truth with a lie makes the lie stronger. Did the new Narnian religion of "Tashlan" represent Islam, I wonder? Perhaps it is unsurprising that no-one has attempted to film The Last Battle.
It seems to me that there are so many disagreements between Christianity and Islam that anyone looking at it seriously would be hard put to it to find areas of real, rather than apparent, common ground. However, Allah and Satan are definitely one and the same. I did a unit on Islam when doing an evangelism course and had to visit a mosque. I prayed in tongues whilst there and had horrible nightmares that night. Since the gift of tongues is God-given, the real God would not react like that to its use.

Good evening Sandra: Thank for continuing a wonderful civil conversation of history facts.
1.- What it would have been better would be to continue calling the Torah or Holy Book of the Jews. 24 in total and nothing more.
2.- Yes, the separation of Christianity derives from Paul's action when he was goin to Damascus to warn that there was group that called Jesus the Messiah, and he believed he was not. Then he had a vision and changed his mind. He never - denied his Jewish origins but obligated the separation between Jews, and those who believed that Jesus is a THE Messiah. Once you accept this belief you accept Christianity, and if Jewish- no longer a Jew. That is true for the followers of Paul, as well as the mew group called "Jews for Jesus." It was Moshe Rosen who found the solution to be both Jew and Christian; Jews do not accept this premise: the moment that a person accept Jesus as a Savior and SON of God is automatically no longer considered a Jew- even if they designate themselves as such. I am not saying they are not good people, just no longer Jews. Glad that you met some of them and like them. Jesus himself, when little studied with Rabbi Gamliel as it is noted. He formed his group while the future war with Rome was raging. There 4 groups having different opinions as if to go to war or not. As mentioned above, it is Paul- not Jesus who separated this group and preaching to Jews and non- Jews in the Diaspora; neither of which met Jesus. Jesus, as far I know had no inkling that he will be be transformed by Paul.
Finally, yes, I agree Christianity divided in Catholic and Orthodox, and Martin Luther formed other divisions. It is my understanding that all the divisions in one way or anther persecuted Jews: from not letting Jews eat together with Christians in the fourth Century Antioch, to the Inquisition that even followed Jews to the New World. Then the word " pogrom" means riot and they were also directed against the Jews. Those were Orthodox Christians.
With the rise of antisemitism today I shudder about the future! Eager to continue the conversation.

Agreed, on all points here! I don't have all the answers yet, but I've only been working on it for a bit over 65 yrs, seriously... mostly on my own time with the Holy Spirit.

I have only been a Christian for 42 years (converted at 19) so somewhat your junior.

I was mid 20s when I was redeemed, after I woke up still alive the day after I should have died. Some of us are kind of stubborn; Yhwh had been trying to get my attention for 20 yrs by then, but that did it. That was over 50 yrs ago. But I was learning before I actually got there.

The amazing thing is His patience with us. I only learnt to abide in Him seven years ago (unsurprisingly it is one of the most little-preached-about topics), and, whilst I have clear evidences that my conversion was for real, and was honoured by Him as such, my walk with Him is hugely different since 2017.

Indeed, His patience is amazing and wondrous! That shows you are growing in Him, as we are all meant to be doing.

I was amazed that something as simple as looking up often and lovingly in prayer could make such a difference. The prayer pattern that I had been taught to view as the gold standard was the early morning Bible reading followed by prayer. Not, of course, wanting to disparage Bible study, which is still part of my life, and still feeds into my prayer - but it is the practice of abiding that has transformed me more in the past 7 years, than anything that I learnt in the preceding 35.

We each learn and come to answers in our own time and way under Holy Spirit tutelage, and we each are being prepared for different tasks, so need different preparation and skills! But He patiently brings us each along in the way we need to go. We aren't meant to be "cookie cutter images"!

Having suffered from people trying to make me over, totally agree. Your path to abiding probably differs from mine (but it must exist because Jesus' statement that fruitfulness is contingent on abiding was given to all of the disciples).
It may be worth your knowing the detail of my experience, though, because it appears to me that you have a teaching gift, and it may be that what God has done in my life will be helpful to someone you mentor.